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J.J. Cash

Kislev Coach Support Group

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Now that the honeymoon phase of a newer race is over, there are only 4 of us coaching Kislev this season...

 

@Sliceanddice, @wismerhill, and newcomer to the suffering @Merlinpig.

 

The initial furor of excitement has given way to some harsh truths: This race is difficult to coach, but even more difficult to manage and develop. Most of our compatriots have thrown in the towel.

 

Those of us with developed teams seem to have settled around 1700~ tv. How critical have you both felt the bear has been to your successes at this TV? What are your thoughts about the teams overall identity (and overall competitiveness?) in relation to other races? Any other musings you'd like to share?

 

I think anyone whose played with Kislev could tell you that they have some very strong tools to work with. The question quickly becomes 'what is the most tv effective way to manage those tools' and get bang for your buck, instead of bloat.

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I started with the bear and felt he really pulled his weight. After he died it took me a looooooong time to replace as also blitzer and catchers died in droves and needed replacing first.

I think if id do it again id still go for the bear.

 

Playin gKislev means playing understaffed. i think ive played 1 match with 12 players and maybe 4 without a loner. 1 or 2 early casualties can really end the game for you. On the other hand the tolls can help you score a quick TD, but often it just isnt enough.

 

For me the TV :uselfullness ratio is really off with this race.

 

more later

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First about a team. Every match (up from tier 2) i feel like i'm playing weaker team - mainly couse most of a matches i played was against total bash and kislev are not woodies, they can not dodge at 2+ and give enemy one blitz-block every turn. 

Every since i felt that team is veeeeery bloaty. Last game i lost one of my most amazing players (+st block pomb tackle blitzer) however, how ridiculously it may sound, i think like team is better without him (over 250k player is a lot and when you play mainly agaist av 9 killer is not as effective like in elf leagues). Now with lower tv i will be able probably to induce a wizard, who with agi 5 catcher is pretty ( ;) ) "decent"

 

Now i think about keeping roster like this - Bear 2 blitzers 2 catchers 7 linos.

It should prevent bloat. Because, tbh kislev has one of the most amazing linos in a game. 60 K for 6 3 3 8 with leap and very long legs makes them potentialy very cheap and excelent sackers

but blitzers - even if they got GAS access, are too expensive to keep 4 or even 3 of them on the roster. 

 

 Bear (so krox), especially bloxigor is amazing. Str 5 player with good synergy with diving tackle and guard, what kislev is lacking is a great piece. Also with av 9 it shouldn't die so often... SHOULDN'T :D

Catchers, are nearly unstoppable if you want to 2 turn td. 

 

 

Kislev can be a good race to play with, but in occ, where top divisions are bash heavy i don't know if it is a good choice. Sometimes i think that woodies would fit better in this leage. But i will keep trying, until i lost few more amazing players :D

 

Edit: I don't know, maybe i'm insane however, every time i play in other league with other race i think to myself - "Damn i would rather play kislev" I may become Slannoholic :wacko:

Edited by Sliceanddice

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It was just an experiment, as my plan was always to return as amazon coach.

However, i stopped earlier than expected, because kislev TV is a pita.

Going without a bear was no option for my team (Lonely bear club).

Therefore i went with 2 catchers only.

Not sure how many blitzers but i doesn't really matter...

You need to skill your players with some block, dodge and wrestle.

And quite soon they become a high TV bloat shit.

All these (unneeded) long legs and leap skills really serve no use most of the time.

Yes, once they work, they can be great fun and make for some astounding, mind blowing moves..

but lets be honest: its just too unreliable.

Leaping is like trying to dodge with amazons.. you do it if you really have to, but you'd better not (minus the risk of av7 but also minus the auto-reroll)

And you really need at least 4 rerolls for a decent chance to have one left in moments of desperation.

 

I like to play underdog teams. I like the kislevs spirit. but i don't like the bloat of useless skills. not a team i am going to play in a competitive environment (private league that is) again anytime soon.

 

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I'm loving Kislev, but yeah, the TV for some of the players does seem a bit off. 110k for a str 3 agi 3 with no block or dodge is kind of a painful purchase. Once you get a few skills on them they can be great but it's just so painful getting to that point. Taking a -mv and -agi on a blitzer and lineman in my first game, and rolling 1 on winnings in my second has meant I'm just so behind in my division.

My first Kislev team I got off to a great start and really loved playing, but this one is going a bit more rocky.

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@wismerhill I feel your pain, I've just started playing with a bench for the first time in 2+ seasons. Is this really a team that can play outnumbered with the same tenacity that proper elfs can? I feel the lack of bench (subsequent to injury spiral and expensive roster) has been a major contributing factor to my in-game struggles. The bear will definitely carry its weight in your first 20 games, but I've had a hard time holding on to them against real bash. They get tied down and surrounded while the rest of the team is leaping away! Then there's the financial issues of replacing them... I'd like to hear more about how you think Kislev can maximize their TV/performance ratio!

 

 

@SliceanddiceI've been committed to a 4 blitzer build for a while now, and while all my blitzers are looking pretty good, they also combine for about 1k TV on their own :gutted:. I do agree that the linos have to be the true value and engine of the team, and to neglect your lineman recruiting is to embrace a big bloaty TV. I've been aiming for a 2catcher/4blitzer build. Perhaps if one of my blitzers dies I will look to replace him with a bear, I do feel they kind of compete with each other for a roster spot (pretty similar TV sadly...)

 

 

@meebeeI don't blame you for walking away from this mess of a race sooner than later! I don't plan to ever roll off Kislev in the OCC, but I'm in no hurry to make another kislev team in any other league or format.

 

 

In closing, I might be beginning to doubt the common sentiment echoed by @Merlinpigabout kislev blitzers really being great... Are they really that good or functional in application or do they handicap the team?

 

We all agree that in a vacuum Kroxigors are great, so its only really a question of do you have money and will it kill your TV.

 

Linos are the closest thing this team has to value.

 

Catchers aren't that expensive, have the game-changing 2+leap, and are the closest to 'fresh out the box' ready as any kislev player.

 

So that leaves us with the exotic blitzers and their alluring skill access.. I don't think "No Blitzers" is a good answer to kislev problems in an eternal league. I'm not so sure 4 blitzers is the answer either. Maybe 2 or 3 would end up being more of a goldilocks zone for me, but both of you with developed Kislev teams that are going that route seem to be having similar racial struggles. We've gone about it different ways but we all agree we're bloaty and under performing.

Edited by J.J. Cash

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@J.J. Cash I'm still pretty new to Kislev and Bloodbowl in general, but my inclination is that you need 1 blitzer as a killer to try and keep numbers even because your players are going to get battered. As for whether you want the other 3? I think absolutely if you can afford it. Kislev can't make great use of many of the inducements, they aren't mobile enough to set up for a bribe safely, and they are already reroll heavy so getting an extra one isn't too helpful. They are your flexibility once you get guard/blodge, marking the agility teams with diving tackle and helping you bash back and free up pieces with guard.

 

Again, pretty new, so feel free to tell me I'm wrong and bad and such.

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Yeah but 4 slann rr are cheaper than 3 undead rerolls. This is not a problem to have 4 rr which costs 50 k each. Also you can probably drop 1 rr when you got like pro on 3 players

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7 minutes ago, Sliceanddice said:

Yeah but 4 slann rr are cheaper than 3 undead rerolls. This is not a problem to have 4 rr which costs 50 k each. Also you can probably drop 1 rr when you got like pro on 3 players

 

i dont think you ever have room to put pro on any player though....

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@wismerhill your main ball sacker lino and killer should have pro. I think that best way to build a team is to make 2 sackers - 1) Wrestle, Strip Ball, Pro 2nd) Wrestle, Tackle, pro.

 

Also pass block catcher should have it (Pro is the only think that allow you to reroll all of failed rolls during intercept)

 

Also pro is the only skill which have synergy with leap

Edited by Sliceanddice

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21 hours ago, wismerhill said:

I started with the bear and... I think if id do it again id still go for the bear.

 

What is this bear you speak of?  I thought these were lizards on pogo sticks?   I only have access to two races, where do I find the lineup?

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1 hour ago, Sliceanddice said:

@wismerhill your main ball sacker lino and killer should have pro. I think that best way to build a team is to make 2 sackers - 1) Wrestle, Strip Ball, Pro 2nd) Wrestle, Tackle, pro.

 

Also pass block catcher should have it (Pro is the only think that allow you to reroll all of failed rolls during intercept)

 

Also pro is the only skill which have synergy with leap

Solid points.. my 6448 wrestle neess tackle first though...

My MB blitzer needs more SPP but he keeps getting injured t1-3...

 

Btw NoS works great with PB as well?

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@MerlinpigKislev can do more with a wizard than maybe any other race in the game, at the point that a wizard stadium upgrade might even be a very good strategic play! But it's not often about what you can do with inducements, its about what your opponent is going to do with inducements against you :D. The blitzers are very nice but we're all having trouble at developed TV right now feeling like we are much weaker than our TV would indicate and still giving away inducements... So its become an issue of TV competitiveness past 1500 I think.

 

@Sliceanddice and @wismerhill .. how are your linos living long enough to get 2/3 skills?! are you apo'ing some of them? Feeding them TD's? And has pass block REALLY been that useful for either of you, on a consistent basis? Real wary of a specialist like that on a team that already has roster spot issues.

Edited by J.J. Cash

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@Sliceanddice I have 2 developed linos worth apoing. 

 

http://www.bb2leaguemanager.com/Leaderboard/player_detail.php?player_id=18869721&community_platform=pc

http://www.bb2leaguemanager.com/Leaderboard/player_detail.php?player_id=18869721&community_platform=pc

so probably they will live... probably

 

And also pass block is a good skill only if you have good player for this. Like this gentelman 

 

http://www.bb2leaguemanager.com/Leaderboard/player_detail.php?player_id=20427664&community_platform=pc

 

And yes pass block would be much better in agi based league, however i couldn't pass this skill on such a player. 3+ Intercepts usually just shut down opponents ability to pass so he have to play in different way ( as a wizard, sometimes threat of a wizard is more dangerous than wizards itself. )

Edited by Sliceanddice

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I'm a fan of the Rule of 5, and I have 4 very nice blitzers and 1 amazing catcher, so none of my linos will ever see an apo outside of the closing turns of a game..

  power5.jpg

 

Might be better served swapping the unstatted blitzer for a bear if I can ever afford another one.

 

I can get behind Pass Block so far in that there isn't much competition for skills on a traditional catcher past blodgestep. Maybe if I can hold on to a 2nd catcher for more than a few games I'll pick it up to play around with.

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Tbh i don't like +ma on blitzers. You need +ma on catchers to get better one turn chances and +ma bloats bloated player even more.

 

Also first game with only 2 blitzers and it was... nice. I didn't give any inducements. Also +st wrestle tackle lino is amazing against lizards. Now i need only to decide what to do with surfer couse when i play with 2 blitzers i don't need one. Maybe need to recycle.

Edited by Sliceanddice

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It would be preferable to get some +ma on catchers for sure! I still think its nice to go from 7 to 8 on a team of only 6 and 7, and there's some synergy, 8MA Jumpup/leap/dodge can cover a lot of distance even from downed state. If I could do it over again I would probably pass on the +ma for guards.

 

Guard is a very critical skill, and Kislev mainly seem to get it from doubled linos/catchers instead of an array of blitzers. I want to know how this team feels with a lot of guard.

 

In fantasy-'I'm not doing TV math right now'-land, the team has the potential to be a 5+ guard team with 4 blitzers/bear, and sprinkle in an extra one or two from some other pieces who roll doubles...

Edited by J.J. Cash

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I found when I played Kislev in brawl (two separate seasons, 25ish matches each) that my playstyle was different from any other team I coached. When I attack, I put all my effort into a fast score. Then on def, I'd focus on pressure on valuable pieces or harass the BC with leap blitzes hoping for a lucky strike. My first lineman skill was kick so that I could abuse blitzes and failed pickups. I'd leave a flank completely open, allowing the opponent to score quickly (if they wished), or stay and get harassed. I'd disconnect my players as much as I could, often risking 3+ dodges at the end of my turn. Guard was useful insofar I could jump it into the opposition for fun blitzes, but mass guard wouldn't have been very useful. It's all about the few blocks needed to get to the BC.

 

Lots of risks, lots of reward. I pulled of some crazy stuff, but when it failed it crashed and burned. I still managed to build some awesome players, but I seldom ran without journeymen. I think Kislev's strength lies in unconventional play, and that's probably why I like them so damn much.

 

I've just signed up for BBtactics. Seeing as I'll be playing my necros in OCC for a while yet, I may well go Kislev there.

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Looking at my previous matches i can see one thing. Kislev is Leeroy Jenkins of Blood Bowl. Coaches of other races will look at some plays and tells to themselves - Naaah it is too risky, you will not do it. And after that you show them that how wrong they are, couse you are a Kislev coach and you will take a lot of risks to make a play. Maybe this is special with kislev, while playing this race you just have to make a risky plays, this is why you have to have right mentality to play that race and make risky rolls shouting LEEEROY JENKINS.

 

And also this is why players die a lot but better let not mention that ;)

Edited by Sliceanddice

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Yeah, that's how I see it a lot of the time. I'll consider plays that I wouldn't even look twice at for other teams. It's their main strength, so you play it. And even if you are several players down, you can pull off bouncy shenanigans because they can ALL do it. I've turned matches because my opponent assumed I was out of the game when I only had five players left and they let down their guard. Good stuff.

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But then it was/is most likely a combination of poor coaching on one side and good coaching on the other + (at least) decent dices.

Not because Kislev is a such good team.

 

Anyways. I already gave my 2 cents about how i see this team.

 

 

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Oh, I never claimed they were a good team, just fun! My record with them is pretty bad. But the wins were insanely entertaining. lol

 

Anyway, I'm going to play a Kislev team in Big Crunch 2, so we'll see how long it takes me to come back swearing off them forever. :D

 

 

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