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Blood Bowl 3

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If they implement something similar to the in between season of the bb2016, I guess that can work, tho it's a ton of micromanagement (roughly speaking, in between seasons you have to rehire your team with limited cash meaning you can't keep all your super-developed players, leading to a min-maxing model)

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Posted (edited)
On 5/29/2019 at 8:44 AM, Rymdkejsaren said:

I'm guessing if you write a machine learning AI that's awesome beating a particular game it's actually very difficult to scale it back so that it doesn't just repeatedly humiliate its human opponents. Basically, teaching it to act human is harder than teaching it to act superhuman. lol

 

Of course, even a superhuman AI would be at the mercy of Nuffle, so there's that small consolation.

Sorry to do be a bit of necromancy (not really), but I found this interesting reading.

 

I think a good BB AI is well beyond mankind (never mind cyanide) at the moment.

 

Google have been making the headlines for mastering Go and Chess, but it has done so using brute force computing - ie computer plays against itself, trying all possible moves and recording outcomes, then adjusting moves likelihood based on whether it won or not. (Literally the AI program has 2 routines unique to the game type - one to list all the valid moves, one to check if the game is won)

 

In chess, there typically might be 30 moves available, Go perhaps rather more like 100(?)

 

Imagine how many moves there are in BB - each player could move to maybe 150 spaces, plus you need to worry about the order of moves and more.

Don't even think about adding player skills into the mix...

Edited by Hudd

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I believe machine learning and brute force are different concepts. The Go AI 'learned' by playing matches against itself. The classic chess AIs (like the one that beat Kasparov) didn't do that. They had thousands of openings programmed into them manually, on top of which they had a brute-force approach calculating every possible board several moves into the future. The processing power required for such operations increase exponentially for each move, and it gets silly quite fast. But remember, they've now coded an AI that beats 99.8 % of human players at Starcraft 2, so complexity isn't the problem it used to be. This success is a result of not only the increased processing power available for brute force approaches, but of other, more economical solutions, like machine learning and optimisation and pruning of algorithms to remove obviously bad choices (for example).

 

But most of that isn't anything you can put into a commercial game. That being said, I doubt a 'good' BB AI is beyond what can be coded into a game run on a personal computer. The problem is that it's a really tough job, and one that would have to be done by someone who understands BB really well and is a really good AI coder on top (neither which Cyanide appear to have access to). My guess is a good BB AI would cost a significant portion of the budget of the game. Better to put it into pretty grass and orc cheerleaders, obviously.

 

I'm also pretty sure it's possible to code a much better AI than the current one, even on a budget. But honestly, the only reason I might care about a decent AI for BB3 is that it might entice more people to play online and end up in our league.

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Agreed - I think I could do a pretty good BB AI (I'm available for hire, Cyanide) - it certainly would not be hard to do one better than BB2s, but coding something that could compete with the best players would be a lifetime's endeavour.

 

Google has also done a chess AI using the 2 routines method I described (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero), but yes, traditional Chess AIs have not been done like this.

 

I'll have to research what they did in Starcraft...

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Hudd said:

Agreed - I think I could do a pretty good BB AI (I'm available for hire, Cyanide) - it certainly would not be hard to do one better than BB2s, but coding something that could compete with the best players would be a lifetime's endeavour.

 

Google has also done a chess AI using the 2 routines method I described (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero), but yes, traditional Chess AIs have not been done like this.

 

I'll have to research what they did in Starcraft...

 

 

You might be interested in the bot bowl competition then:

 

https://njustesen.github.io/ffai/

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Best thing they could do for BB AI - remove it. Then people would play online!

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Don't worry they will manage to make exactly the same mistakes with bb3 as 1 and 2 except the mm will somehow be even more idiotic than it is now..

 

oh and the end turn button will fill the entire screen at all time..

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Am I wrong or this time BB3 is done by other company than Cyanide? Or is it Cyanide again??

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1 minute ago, Rymdkejsaren said:

The publisher is changing/changed. But it will still be developed by Cyanide.

 

While Cyanide don't have the most awesome coders one thing I really like in their games are graphics. I must say they have really good graphic team.

Regarding release of BB3:

As far I found on internet the release of BB3 will be correlated to release of TT new Blood Bowl.

I hope we will have all the new things that might be in new TT Blood Bowl.

(like snotling teams, more positionals in Halfling Teams).

I am not saying we must transfer with OCC to BB3 (but I assume we might someday) but I just need to have new BB game.

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Their graphics are decent and sometimes even good where they bother. Sadly, they don't bother that often.

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I think the AI being decent is important for commercial success - playing online is not for everyone.

 

This afternoon, I read up about the Starcraft II AI (https://deepmind.com/blog/article/alphastar-mastering-real-time-strategy-game-starcraft-ii) and yes, I have changed my mind - if they can develop an AI for Starcraft, it can be done for BB - although not as easily as for Go and Chess.

 

And the BB Bot Bowl competition looks really interesting! I would love to have a go at that, but am unlikely to be able to find the time... I hope there will be news posted on how this develops...

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BDW AI does not have to be super class level.

It it does not have to be created with idea of winning vs humans all the time, this would be quite pointless.

It just should behave at least somewhat like human, and use some common strategies. This kind of AI is much more easy to create.

 

We do not need self learning AI for thing like Blood Bowl. We need AI that would have implemented some general strategies for all teams and add some for specific teams - like bash war for bash teams, recognize surf occasions for teams with Frenzy, run-trough-long-pass-win-game for elves. I am not saying it's not complex but its finite number of possibilities.

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4 hours ago, Gobas said:

BDW AI does not have to be super class level.

It it does not have to be created with idea of winning vs humans all the time, this would be quite pointless.

It just should behave at least somewhat like human, and use some common strategies. This kind of AI is much more easy to create.

 

We do not need self learning AI for thing like Blood Bowl. We need AI that would have implemented some general strategies for all teams and add some for specific teams - like bash war for bash teams, recognize surf occasions for teams with Frenzy, run-trough-long-pass-win-game for elves. I am not saying it's not complex but its finite number of possibilities.

 

Agreed.  It doesn't need to be a learning AI.  Before BB2 came out, cyanide had said that they were implementing an improved AI over BB1, and that it was structured in such a way that they might be able to offer scriptable strategies, with the intent that coaches themselves might be able to create and share scripts.  This never materialized obviously, and they never committed to it, but they did mention it.  Obviously this would be the easiest way and the best way to get some usable AI teams.  If the success of the AI depends on situations, who better to create a lot of situational scripts than coaches themselves.  Even a basic tree that would start by knowing the team your playing and who you are playing against could create a tree of opportunities based on the current board.  It wouldn't be perfect but it could be far better than what we have.

 

Then again I'm not really interested in playing against the AI, but having it as an option could be useful in leagues with inevitable drop outs or missed games.  Imagine if you knew your team would be played by an AI coach if you couldn't get your match scheduled that week :D

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I actually played in single player in BB1 and BB2 and enjoyed it for while. But if you familiar with BB rules AI is quite horrible at playing BB.

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2 hours ago, Rymdkejsaren said:

You can add an AI opponent to mp leagues. That would indeed be quite the punishment for missing your match, in its current state.

Last time i played vs the AI I farmed 49 SPP in a league setting.

Granted it was with killy chaos, but it was a 7-1 win alongside mass cas and some throws. the AI is so poor i have never wanted to play again. 

Punishment for everyone else - that's 3 games worth of "free", focused development.

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Posted (edited)

I made it into a video to save you reading it:
 

 

Edited by AndyDavo

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Not my list, from the bloodbowl reddit:

 

This was compiled by Thegngrnoob on facebook.post

And from u/ketilkn's response to the leak thread

And comments on this thread too.

  1. The Big Change:

A new stat: PA has been added.

This is assumed to be "Passing", as it matches the Blitz bowl rule abbreviation.

This appears to allow separation in terms of how good a player is at dodging and catching vs. throwing.

2) Agility, "Passing" and Armour Value have been changed to a target number.

e.g. Agility three becomes 4+, AV 7 becomes 8+

3) The passing table has altered to be:

  • Quick pass = 0

  • Short pass = -1

  • Long pass = -2

  • Long Bomb = -3

  1.  

With the 2020 Blood Bowl leak, here are some notes:

• Looks like Big Guys in the starter box so expect a pricier box

• Crash Landing segment reads like you can throw prone players...Nice

• Rushing is something new...

• Catching a bomb is now riskier. Explosion works like Mighty Blow for the +1s. (Might always have done this...Cannae remember)

• Adding a strength MASSIVELY increases the cost of the player by 80k (if my French is correct)

• Some skills have values of +1. Assuming these will be different for Star Players. Great idea

• AV is now 1 higher than before to simplify seeing what you need to roll. AV6 changing to AV7+ in the Halfling example

• Looking at the AG for Skaven, I am already a big fan of the passing split. Gutters dodge on 2+, but pass on 4+. Throwers dodge on 3+ and throw on 2+

• Oooh, costs that aren't multiples of ten. I will need a new abacus

• Trolls are more likely to be able to use re-rolls (Loner 3+ instead of 4+). I like this change a lot. Projectile Vomit sounds delightfully disgusting

• My beloved Halflings. Hefties are now suited to throwing. Catchers are more expensive

• Blitz! has been massively toned down. LOVE LOVE LOVE this. If I could, I would marry this change and have lots of little Kick Off Tables with it. Only D3+3 Players now

• Perfect Defence has gone, replaced with Solid Defence. This, along with Quick Snap only works on D3+3 players

• Changing Weather and Brilliant Coaching swapped around. Makes Assistant Coaches a bit better

• Officious Ref sounds great. Player fights the Referee!

• Riot gone. Clock always goes backwards now in Turns of the Half 6-8, forward otherwise

• Pro now on a 3+

• Shadowing works on a natural 6 roll too as well as usual rules

• Passing happens before Interception roll now

• Rules on Take Backs is a nice addition

• D16 Casualty Chart! Seems nicer, but I'm not mathing it ha. Roughly 1/8 Death instead of 1/6

• Halfling Chef now tells you when to roll for it, which is better

• Bugman looks well worth the inducement for Stunty teams as they often end up with less than 11 players

• Claws doesn't work with Mighty Blow

• Iron Hard Skin won't be picked by anyone but is a nice skill to add to new postionals

• Tentacles also works on a natural 6 as well as normal rules

• Cannoneer sounds good for Long Passers

• I can see myself using the Fumblerooskie skill. Dropping the ball for someone else to carry

• On The Ball combines Kick Off Return and Pass Block

• Running Pass looks STRONG for Elven teams. Passing and being able to move afterwards

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I thought there may have been some kind of rule where a player with permanent injuries could sit out a season but stay on the roster and have that injury healed at the end of the season.  Be interesting to read the details of that rule.

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