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Is there a reason we don't have feeder leagues?


Tsarcastic
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I'm an old coach who played in BB1 days. I made it up to Tier 1, then bounced back to Tier 2 and never quit made it back up again. I'm well acquainted with the highs and lows of Blood Bowl, and quit for a few years because the lows were hitting me much harder than the highs. Recently came back and was excited to see OCC was still running.

 

Tier 6 was a lot of fun. I lost a lot of players and only had ~1200tv at the end of the season, but it was good to play and I was looking forward to rebuilding in Tier 5. But of the 4 games I've played this season, 3 have been against bash teams with 1600+ TV. An 1800tv orc team, 1800tv khemri team, and a 1650tv dwarf team. Several of whom have level 6 players, and/or several players with mb/piling on. Needless to say I haven't been able to develop much, just fight to stay above water. And every game is 2 hours of boredom and frustration.

 

Is there a reason OCC doesn't have a feeder league anymore? I know part of the appeal of the game is that you're not always evenly matched with your opponents, and I'm fine with that. But this is zero fun. I'm also playing in GOBBLN and they have a two tiered feeder league, so the 1st season will always be against new teams and the 2nd has a starting tv cap of 1600 or so. I've had some rough matches, but none of them felt unwinnable and I definitely didn't have to play half my season in games that made me want to quit. 

 

I'm not trying to criticize anyone in particular, I know running something like this is a labor of love and there's no easy way to handle this kind of thing. But if you're having trouble keeping new players (and BB leagues always seem to be), this might be a contributing factor. I'm not sure if I'm going to be sticking around next season and it has nothing to do with the game itself.

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That sounds like my story!

 

Back in the day there was Snotling Soda, but now they just add more T6s.  I think you were unlucky in your T5 draw.  I am curious to look at your tier.  

I don't know how those orks are in T5.  Gobas doesn't try to win, he just fouled you to death and happened to win.  The Dorfs are not that advanced, just a big team.

 

you team doesn't look too bad, just no claws yet.

Edited by Kjelstad
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Several reasons really.

 

  • We had people run, possibly several, teams in the feeder until they got a stupidly good one to enter the league with. Not ideal.
  • Before we discontinued it it took more effort to run than the main league, with a much higher dropout rate.
  • RayXXX got absolutely burned out doing that. We don't want to repeat that.

 

What we do have is T6 being (mainly) new teams. Ideally it'll be just new teams but sometimes a few teams get to stay for a season. It makes more sense to keep 3 teams in T6 rather than sending 7 hard to find volunteers with new teams to T5, for example.

 

 

As for those TVs in T5, seems very high. I'm playing in T4 this season (with 1800ish TV) and I'm handing out inducements to my opponents like there's no tomorrow. Level 6 players in T5 sounds very strange.

 

 

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I had a look at your division. You've faced the three teams with highest TV, none of which has a winning record since their creation (Gobas was at 50%) which could explain why they've stayed in T5 a bit longer than you'd normally expect.

 

I found one player at level 6 (pomber, on the orc team). 

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1 hour ago, Pidpad said:

Several reasons really.

 

  • We had people run, possibly several, teams in the feeder until they got a stupidly good one to enter the league with. Not ideal.
  • Before we discontinued it it took more effort to run than the main league, with a much higher dropout rate.
  • RayXXX got absolutely burned out doing that. We don't want to repeat that.

 

What we do have is T6 being (mainly) new teams. Ideally it'll be just new teams but sometimes a few teams get to stay for a season. It makes more sense to keep 3 teams in T6 rather than sending 7 hard to find volunteers with new teams to T5, for example.

 

 

As for those TVs in T5, seems very high. I'm playing in T4 this season (with 1800ish TV) and I'm handing out inducements to my opponents like there's no tomorrow. Level 6 players in T5 sounds very strange.

 

 

 

Those are all good reasons. And I imagine your current T6 structure system is a lot easier on the administrative end. Which, btw. thank you for all the work you do.

 

I definitely didn't have any problems in T6. My team got beat up a bit, but that was just Blood Bowl being Blood Bowl. I only mentioned that I was looking forward to rebuilding because it made this seasons games all the more frustrating.

 

Yeah it's funny I rejoined with my buddy @GodEmperorRex and he got a double promotion to T4. He said something similar about the TV. 

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1 hour ago, Pidpad said:

I had a look at your division. You've faced the three teams with highest TV, none of which has a winning record since their creation (Gobas was at 50%) which could explain why they've stayed in T5 a bit longer than you'd normally expect.

 

I found one player at level 6 (pomber, on the orc team). 

 

Right, but their winning record isn't what I'm talking about. I'm not specifically pointing out any of the coaches I'm playing against when I say this, but the simplest explanation for why so many high TV bash teams are in my T5 division are because they're bad coaches playing bash teams so they can cause a lot of casualties but not win very many games. So they either keep getting demoted to T5, or stay in it. 

 

I don't know what to say, man. I voiced this because I've been here before and this season has been less fun than the last season I played before taking a 4 year break. None of the coaches were poor winners, or did anything I wouldn't have done in their position (piling on for cas, fouling when I stayed down, etc.), but it's been a fucking miserable experience just because of the matchups. 

 

I'm not saying a development league is a necessity to fix this. But I am saying that I doubt I am the only person to have had this kind of experience, and I think it really fucks up the chances of having people stick around. I'm not saying the solution is having a development league. But I think there are solutions. Like, off the top of my head, if your team has 1800+ tv you can't get demoted to Tier 5. That would have kept my match against the dwarf team, which wouldn't have been an awful experience if I hadn't spent 2 of the last 3 games getting my face stomped in by teams with extraordinarily high TVs.

 

Maybe you don't even view this as a problem, since it's a fringe case. That's ok. I'm not asking you to do anything, just trying to relay my frustrations in what is hopefully a constructive way.

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2 hours ago, Kjelstad said:

That sounds like my story!

 

Back in the day there was Snotling Soda, but now they just add more T6s.  I think you were unlucky in your T5 draw.  I am curious to look at your tier.  

I don't know how those orks are in T5.  Gobas doesn't try to win, he just fouled you to death and happened to win.  The Dorfs are not that advanced, just a big team.

 

you team doesn't look too bad, just no claws yet.

 

Yeah I seem to have been very unlucky. I guess there's only one level 6 player in the division, but the idea of a 1200tv team playing against an 1800tv team with a level 6 player seems insane to me. 

 

I wasn't even going to complain about anything, and the dorfs were definitely the lightest of the bunch, but he got really lucky on his cas rolls. After he scored his 2nd touchdown I would have automatically forfeited the game because I was down to 2 players and couldn't put 3 players on the line but 3(?)of my guys came back from being KOd so I had to play it out. Then one of my level 2 beastmen got killed, which was my breaking point for a series of frustrating experiences.

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I have nothing to do with seeding within a division!

 

@Tsarcastic

That aside, it's not as easy as you think to have TV as a part of how you promote/relegate people (besides being a highly volatile measurement that can vary by huge numbers between games).

 

If as you say you can't relegate to tier Y with teams with TV >x. Who do we relegate in that teams place, or deny someone with a better record a promotion? Clearly not a good option either.

On top of that, what do we do with a team that has 5 players missing for the first game of a season, those 5 players bring the TV below the threshold. 

In my opinion TV is too volatile to use as a reliable thing to base seeding on, which is why we haven't done that for many many seasons (sometime before we had SSC back in BB1 if memory serves).

 

What I'm saying is that it's much more complicated than it appears to be. The current league structure seems to be working well, we've actually grown in size for a few seasons in a row.

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A limit on seasons is a blunt solution which will end up leaving some coaches in a shitty position (like having to leave the season they just made it to the high tiers). I suppose you could make exemptions for anyone entering or staying in champs. Even so, it feels a bit like the bank rule; solving a problem with a hammer that can be solved with a pen.

 

I'd like to see some way of solving the problem, but it's not as easy as you might think. Every solution brings new problems.

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Limited number of seasons per team really favours elves and the like as champs. Teams that need development to perform would have much narrower window to realistically go up the tiers and compete for the cup. Just think of the poor stunties!

 

Smartest thing I can come up with assumes that there are some teams that go between championship division and T1 divisions over and over again, being good enough to stay at top like that. If such a dynamic exists, then the number of times team has participated in championships could be the limit with championship wins not counting or outright resetting the timer. It wouldn't mess up people at lower tiers at all, gives everyone a set amount of tries at winning the cup and gives the standing champion a chance to defend their title.

 

7 hours ago, Pidpad said:

That aside, it's not as easy as you think to have TV as a part of how you promote/relegate people (besides being a highly volatile measurement that can vary by huge numbers between games).

 

My active TV jumped between 23xx and 13xx last season at least once. MNGs counted in only between 23xx and 18xx, which is still like half of a fresh team. 

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You get what you get when you make it to the top tiers.  I think we could mitigate some of the problem with a little (more*) fuckery from Pidpad.  You could spread out all of the high TV teams over the tiers or if you had a lot of high level teams, nine or so, you could throw them all into the same tier with Doomy.  That is assuming Doomy ever makes it to tier 5.

 

I think Tsar just had a really bad draw to start.

 

*you know what you did

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While we are on this topic of things we find frustrating, I find the fouling competition to not be very fun overall. Especially in the lower tiers it can be very frustrating as this is where you will find the people who will foul 16 times in a game. OCC is a perpetual league with a clear goal of rising  to the top (or as high as possible) and fouling is a very important element of that. But having rewards and thus supporting a playstyle that is pretty much counteractive to this goal just seems weird. I ran into Gobas and was pretty happy that I walked away unharmed back when I met him (think it was tier 5 too). Other coaches weren't so lucky. Just is annoying to have to play with someone who is playing an entirely different game than the rest of your tier. And once you reach the higher tiers anyway, very few do fouls when they don't get a benefit from it (excluding frustrations fouls on t16...) or would lose more from having that player sent off. 

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3 hours ago, Ynwe said:

While we are on this topic of things we find frustrating, I find the fouling competition to not be very fun overall. Especially in the lower tiers it can be very frustrating as this is where you will find the people who will foul 16 times in a game. OCC is a perpetual league with a clear goal of rising  to the top (or as high as possible) and fouling is a very important element of that. But having rewards and thus supporting a playstyle that is pretty much counteractive to this goal just seems weird. I ran into Gobas and was pretty happy that I walked away unharmed back when I met him (think it was tier 5 too). Other coaches weren't so lucky. Just is annoying to have to play with someone who is playing an entirely different game than the rest of your tier. And once you reach the higher tiers anyway, very few do fouls when they don't get a benefit from it (excluding frustrations fouls on t16...) or would lose more from having that player sent off. 

 

Don't confuse your goals with what random goals everyone else has.

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Jo @Tsarcastic I'm sorry that you feel this way and i can understand you. We are in the same Division this Season and when i started browsing the Teams at the start of the Season i was surprised at first. Starting the season i was in the middle of the division TV wise. All 3 matches i had to play where at least 200 TV up. But it kinda felt to me that the higher the TV was the easier the Match felt. This League systhem we have in the OCC promotes the Fact that certain Teams are strong in certain Divisions. I'm 100% sure My Lizards are never gonna be as strong as this Season. Early they suck cause of no skills but if you have 1-2 skills on your Saury, don't get massivly outgarded and i can't stress this enough NO CLAW ON ENEMY TEAM i think i should be favoured in nearly every matchup. The only Team that realy put up a Fight this Season was @Gobas and his Khemri but we still ended up Niggling a TG. Choas is an insanely good Team..... from Tier 2/3 and above. There will never be a way to get a "Fair" league Systhem in place in My oppinion and Bloodbowl realy is a different kind of game in the fact that you can do everything perfect and still lose. This can be realy frustrating and i had more than my share of it already aswell. The most Important Part in my Oppinion is, that you always keep that in mind and don't put to much emphasys on the Outcome of the matches and rather on your journey in the league. My advise start a Team blogg it realy helped me get threw the first Season where i went (2-5-2) and where already thinking about just quitting. The OCC for me is more than just a BB league it's a community that is closer to a good goup of friends or family than just random people on the Internet. We meet on MD9 this Season. I look forward to playing you and be nuffle ever in your favour.

 

Best regards

 

Iggy

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On 6/7/2020 at 7:47 PM, Ynwe said:

While we are on this topic of things we find frustrating, I find the fouling competition to not be very fun overall. Especially in the lower tiers it can be very frustrating as this is where you will find the people who will foul 16 times in a game. OCC is a perpetual league with a clear goal of rising  to the top (or as high as possible) and fouling is a very important element of that. But having rewards and thus supporting a playstyle that is pretty much counteractive to this goal just seems weird. I ran into Gobas and was pretty happy that I walked away unharmed back when I met him (think it was tier 5 too). Other coaches weren't so lucky. Just is annoying to have to play with someone who is playing an entirely different game than the rest of your tier. And once you reach the higher tiers anyway, very few do fouls when they don't get a benefit from it (excluding frustrations fouls on t16...) or would lose more from having that player sent off. 

 

When I first joined the OCC I was of a similar opinion. I thought the fouling competition encouraged "dishonourable" play. I've since completely changed my mind (I used to have two boots before the old awards were wiped). There are a number of reasons.

 

First, due to how Blood Bowl was designed (or wasn't, depending on how you see it), the different teams are obviously not on an equal footing. Some teams have never made it to the championship, and likely never will barring a Nuffle-fueled miracle. Should people never play those teams? Of course they should, because the main purpose of the OCC is to "provide a means to play Blood Bowl in a reliable and enjoyable league environment" (that's from our rules). The reason is simple: people enjoy different things, and particularly in Blood Bowl due to its peculiar design, people play for all sorts of reasons. Winning just happens to be one of them. So while you enjoy trying to rise in the ranks, another coach prioritises awards, and another challenges themselves by playing all linos, and yet another thinks the best part is writing up a team blog about their adventures. The point is not everyone has the same goal, and we have to accept that coaches enjoy the game in different ways, even if that clashes with our own sometimes. It takes all kind to make a league.

 

Second, fouling is a mechanic that's in the rulebook same as passing and blocking and scoring touchdowns. I find stating that using a game mechanic is somehow morally wrong is a dubious claim. On a good turn (or bad one, for you), a chaos team can get up to eleven chances to punch your poor team into oblivion. Why aren't you complaining about that? Should people only take blocks that are "honourable"? Should people avoid scoring "unnecessary" touchdowns? I mean, if they've already won, why rub it in? If your goal is to rise in the ranks, you're guaranteed to face lot of coaches who will work against that goal. Fouling your players is just one way of stopping you from reaching it. Once you start seeing fouling as just another game mechanic, it's a lot easier to accept it when it happens to you.

 

Hell, if your goal is to advance through the tiers, you're more likely to be helped by encountering an opponent whose goal is to get the boot because going for 16 fouls per match is seriously going to hurt someone's chances to win. Sure, you might draw the short stick and lose an important player or even lose the match because the ref is blind. But that's the game, whether it involves fouls or not; each turn you get dealt a hand and sometimes it stinks. Learning to deal with that is a part of Blood Bowl. So if your opponent is after the boot or a bounty, use it against them; set up fouling opportunities away from your ball carrier or use a bountied player to draw them away from your flank.

 

So try not to take it personally when your opponent gangfouls your favourite player for dirty git points. They want a shiny award, just like you do -- they're just after a boot instead of a cup.

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33 minutes ago, Igralius said:

But it kinda felt to me that the higher the TV was the easier the Match felt.

 

All teams benefit from skills, but rule of diminishing returns hits every team sooner or later. One can get a dwarf team, for example, to TV2300 if they want to, but you have all the guard/SF/grab longbeards and other pieces you want at around TV1800 I guess. And you really can't utilize all of those skills all the time at that point anyway, they are there just for safety. Any skills after that have their moments too, but those moments grow rarer and rarer more skills you pick.

 

That is to say, more skills you have, the actual value of new ones go down but TV price you pay stays the same. I don't know the details of your matches, but it might've been this dynamic in play: you get more inducement money from their excess TV they can't utilize. 

 

Come to think of it, this is perhaps why I like Kislev/Slann. Their lack of starting skills and amount of skill access with normal rolls is only matched by vampires. Value for TV drop happens to them too, but the cap is so high that one can't never realistically hit it. This obviously doesn't apply to catcher heavy builds with 1 or 2 blitzers only and no bear, but I don't really like that kind of Kislev either.

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One thing I'd like to try if it ever comes to an online client is the BB2016 mechanic to "rebuy" your team between seasons, forcing you to eventually decide either to have just a couple star players or try to get a fleshed out team. I guess it could even get adjusted depending on the tier you are in as to how much cash you get for your next season, but also helps the teams that had a bad one and ended up with just 5 veteran players left. But right now this is but a pipe dream.

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Because my name was mentioned couple of times you summoned me.

 

Hello

Here are my two cents.

I was playing in OCC all kind of teams, right now I ended playing "Bash" Khemrii (I do not treat Khemrii as really bash team as they can't be as bash as Orks or late Chaos/Nurgle).

Yes I foul a lot. I do this with whatever team I play as. Orks, Goblins, Elves, Dwarfs, Skaven, Amazons or Khemrii. This is way I play. Its action within the rules (like pass and all those ball stuff). Many times I loose because of this - mainly because I got to many players sent off or I foul on turn 16 and forgot to score at all.

I foul every one and with every team. Every people have some goals.

Pidpad probably wants to win Championship once more.

Doomy probably wants to reach tier 2 at least once.

Kjelstad probably wants to suck people and drain their blood or something.

I have a dream when I will do 17 fouls in match or have sent off at least 8 players.

 

Yes I am not best coach out there, so as anyone I want some awards. As you might see I don't have any fancy first or second place awards and I was not able to get them even if I play fully focused to win and not foul at all. I might be not good enough, I am better that I was when I started OCC but highest tier I was ever ever was Tier 3.
So now with Khemrii I can't play fancy ball, I can't do this funny run-dodge-score things. I am playing the only way Khemrii have chance - remove-opposing-players-from-pitch-then-score.

I see you had really bad luck facing three higher TV teams almost in row instead of facing like 1000-1100 TV of first Match Days.

Also you have chosen team that is not so easy at the start and suffer greatly if face teams with skills as Chaos lack of them before getting some levels.
This two things created you frustration and I can believe why.

 

But right now I must say you must cheer up. The worse things already happened and rest off season should be easier.

One - you got couple of skills and only real worrying injury is -MA on Warrior. I doubt you will ever use AG on your -AG Minotaur.
The next four matches are vs much lower TV including Goblins where you can hope for some SPP farming.

 

About Feeder leagues. We had Snotling Soda and as Pidpad said, there was re-roll fiesta. People played lots of team mini-maxing with them trying to roll some ridiculous stats or skills and not caring about games if team does not look awesome after half of the matches.

This created to many really overpowered low TV teams, and in my opinion it was much less fun to play vs them than playing vs higher TV and at least having inducements.

 

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9 hours ago, Gobas said:

I have a dream when I will do 17 fouls in match or have sent off at least 8 players.

Actually had a chance for this yesterday... Sadly my divisions dirty git gives no points from the 17th foul, so I did the unthinkable and scored instead.

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