Disappointment

[mossmac]

Hi

 

This is just a post about how I feel where Blood Bowl 3 stands right now.

 

I have been away for a fair time before all the  3rd edition changes, and this season 8 is my first time back and I had to make a lot of adjustments.

 

While most small changes have been fine, what the game designers have done to the Passing game is truely terrible (plus a few other things)

 

The wild random throw is truely awful and the dedicated thrower destroyed the elf game in particular.

 

The game is just a grind bashing game now with very few opportunities of planned end to end passing except through tiny odds emergency plays that work rarely at about the same rate for any team.

 

 

Having played elves since the first tabletop edition I knew their strengths and weakness. I would still be confident in scoring with six players. Now it's 9.

 

In the current bashing grind state of the game elves are way over priced.

With even fewer Dark Elf Blitzers available in the next update there should be a drop in costs. Dark Elf linemen are nowhere near worth 70000 GP and witch elves hugely OP at 110000

 

And the iron hard skin skill is insane

 

Blood bowl has always had balance where one skill can be countered with another skill. Back in the day Claw was the big one capped at 8+

 

Nothing can effect Iron Hard Skin?

 

Face palm

 

Something like that needs a hard counter. Maybe auto Niggling injury if it does break and the player is injured as it doesn't heal easily? 

 

Lizard men are still not fixed with Saurus still sitting on M6, so that these 'slow' cold-blooded reptiles can 'keep up' with their skink faster cousins. No pros and cons for this team! Makes me scream everytime I have to play them.

 

And 

What 

The

Hell

Have they done to Vampires!?

Gone from joke fun team I enjoyed the challenge of playing to point and click best tier 1 team....truely awful decision (at the same time severely nerfing all elves passing game see above).

 

Overall all the big changes to the game have made the game a bland creep to the grind punishing bash game making tactics more predictable

 

This is a massive shame, taking away the historical chaotic character and nature of this great game.

 

It's something we have seen across all GW games btw over the recent years making their games more bland under the narrative of being equitable and balanced I presume from the paying competition lobby group of gamers that dominates game development these days.

 

Anyway just my two cents.

 

Do you agree with any of this? Are there big broken things I have missed? Love to hear your views.

 

Cheers

 

Mossmac

Edited March 22 by mossmac

[BeaWolf]

I can definitely see where you’re coming from, especially on the passing side.

 

I came into Blood Bowl with BB3, so I do not have the older tabletop editions in my own memory, but I loved the idea of passing, but under the old rules I more or less gave up on building around it because it felt too unreliable to be a real plan and more like an emergency button.

 

That is also why I am actually quite hopeful about the newer ruleset.

 

From what I have read from tabletop reviews and from people who have now actually played games with the new rules, removing Wildly Inaccurate seems to be one of the biggest changes, and honestly that alone makes me want to give passing another proper go. I do not think passing is suddenly back to some old elf golden age, but it does sound like one of the worst offenders has been removed, which feels like a step in the right direction.

 

On the roster side, I am a bit split.

 

My first reaction to the reduced number of positionals on a lot of teams was honestly negative, because I do think there is a risk that rosters start feeling a bit too alike. But at the same time, I can also see the upside: if you only have two real premium pieces instead of four, then when you expose them and when you protect them becomes a much bigger tactical decision. Losing a Blitzer hurts a lot more when you only have two, and that might create more depth than it first appears. So I am cautious about that part, but not completely against it.

 

On Iron Hard Skin, I am probably less negative than you.

 

As a coach, I hate losing players, so I actually like the skill in general. I do not think IHS is a problem across the board. Where I do think the criticism becomes fair is when it lands on already heavily armoured players. On AV10+ it can start to feel pretty oppressive. So for me the issue is not really the skill itself, but more its ceiling on the toughest players. If it were capped in some way, lets say AV9, then I think it would still be very strong without being miserable to face.

 

On Vampires, though, I think there is something to your point. From what I have seen, that team really does seem to have gone from “fun challenge team” to “very serious team,” and that is a much stronger transformation than some of the others.

 

On Lizardmen, I am less convinced. They still look strong, sure, but I am not sure they are the best example of the game going wrong. That one feels more like a genuinely horrible matchup to face than proof that the whole ruleset is broken.

 

So overall I would put it like this.

 

I think your frustration made a lot of sense for the old BB3 ruleset, especially around passing.

 

But looking at the newer tabletop rules, I am honestly more optimistic than pessimistic. Not because every change looks good, and not because every concern is gone, but because it does seem like some of the worst bits are being corrected. Passing, in particular, looks like it might actually be worth trying to play again instead of just abandoning.

 

That is at least how it looks to me from the outside, based on what people with actual games in the new rules are saying.

[mossmac]

Thanks @BeaWolffor your reply

 

I have now played 250+ games soley with the Dark Elves open league -  since around October 25

 

Some points to note which sums up how the game developers broke the game.

 

I have played only 3 games against other DE and one game vs wood elves - zero games against pro elves.

 

one game against Skaven - so i think people have figuered out this is not a passing game anymore even with the best passing teams.

 

All others in no particular order are heavy bashing team, the point and click variety  with no thinking out of the box needed, dwarves, chaos dwarves, Chaos, orcs and black orcs followed by Lizardman Underworld and various undead (which at least are more interesting) - then Vampire and the smattering of occasional 'other team'

 

I am on my sixth Dark Elf team in the public league as all previous five teams have disintergrated once you get matched past 1400TV

 

In the last week I have auto quit bashy teams with Spam MB just to try to get some development of my own  team going but right now after tonight I am sitting with a very broken seven player team for the next game.

 

Definitly a downward death spiral. after you enter mid range  TV and above match ups vs 90% bash.

 

Blood bowl was  always beautifully balanced with the elves on the edge with 2+ dodge and a single dice reroll (which I am sure I do not need to point out is far riskier than the easily set up double dice block reroll both block dice) - double one would then catch your whole team out from time to time and the opposition could whale on all your whole team still left standing next to someone - the balance was elves could still score with passing even down to 4 to 6 players because of the passing across the team.

 

With that  gone, elves are competing in a bash slog with only one winner and it aint them.

 

(on a side note I did get excited about the new skill 'Defend' until I read the fine print .... HAHA the Game developers REALLY didn't want their dwarf guard spam to be THAT badly effected....sigh)

 

Its a pity the most recent game developers haven't got a clue about the historical game mechanic balance - its been around for 30+ years after all, I imagine befor ethey were born - and smahed it to pieces and then are trying a partial fix.

 

I am still trying to figure out how the costings for runners blitzers and WEs stayed the same despite their passing getting worse and if my memory serves me correctly the DE lineman actually increased in price despite being nerfed in passing. Some game developer with clout obviously found the opportunity to vent hatred on a team type they could never figure out how to beat.

 

I will wait and see for another season but I have my doubts and if it is not fixed ill be picking up my toys and leaving to waste my time on one of my more enjoyable hobbies which is a great shame, but before I do I will be making a MB spam Bashy Dwarf team to bring as much misery to the open league player teams as possible to make a spiteful point.

 

Cheers

 

Mossmac

 

 

Edited March 26 by mossmac

[Pidpad]

Passing is a thing in the 2025 rules. Not quite as good as prior to 2020, but good enough (I mean, not all elves completes a quick pass on 2+, but proper throwers do (with some non-elves exceptions)). Runners are not throwers.

 

Dwarf linemen wont have tackle and can't take guard normally. They do get Defensive though.

There's a ton of changes coming and I think most of them are good (based on 3 table top tournaments).

 

Dark Elf assassins are amazing, they get hit and run which works with stab. Great fun. Shadowing gets "fixed" and always works on 4+.

[mossmac]

Thanks @Pidpad for the reply. Glad to hear the dwarves are losing a bit of tackle and the broken assassin is getting a bit of a fix. 

 

Your first point confirms (reinforces?) my main point about the elves passing is not a thing anymore. 

 

I am not sure by what metric you are measuring to come to the conclusion that "passing is good enough" when we see so few passing teams being olayed?

 

This sounds like a personal opinion?

 

Is there any data you have that you have seen passing used as a consistent successful strategy for a team that compensates for the casualties sustained in the defence grind?

 

I remember back in the day often playing the deep field double marking defence against passing teams slot.

 

Can't think the last time I had to do that. 

 

Runners are not throwers...that made me giggle. 

 

You shouldn't take their positional title so literally.

 

They actually are the team's thrower. They have the better Pass stat in the team and the skill Dump Off which is a passing skill. 

 

But the bigger point of all elves being decent quick pass throwers being removed with no balancing addressed in costs or counter bash skills explains the lack of successful passing teams now encountered.

 

Cheers

 

Mossmac

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pidpad]

21 hours ago, mossmac said:

I am not sure by what metric you are measuring to come to the conclusion that "passing is good enough" when we see so few passing teams being olayed?

 

Runners are not throwers...that made me giggle. 

 

You shouldn't take their positional title so literally.

 

They actually are the team's thrower. They have the better Pass stat in the team and the skill Dump Off which is a passing skill. 

 

Heavily cut the above.

 

Passing in the rules we have on BB3 is pretty much dead. It does however get better with the 2025 rules (or Warhammer Blood Bowl as Cyanide calls it). If/when it get released.

 

Wildly inaccurate is gone.

Many players get better at passing.

Runners are less good at it than proper Throwers (with some exceptions, as per usual).

 

It's still more risky than it used to be (0, -1, -2, -3 makes a difference) but you can still quick pass with most throwers on a 2+.