Occ And Bb2

[Dreamy]

2-1-0 and 3-1-0 have been tested by enough football leagues out there and just about everyone has ended up using 3-1-0. That to me speak volumes.

 

 

In 2-1-0 leagues you are playing to not loose, as you still get a point for a tie.  In a 3-1-0 league you have to play to win if you are going to be in the top 3 of the league.

On the other hand this is not football, but blood bowl. Sometimes (reasonably often) the game will be so lopsided (either before start, or due to early dice results) that a draw will feel like a victory. But with 3-1-0 it's still a loss, stealing points from the league table. 2-1-0 means there's always two points coming from a game.

[meebee]

Playing an underdog team, i agree.

Often the best my B(.)(.)Bees could wish for is survival .. and maybe snatch a draw..

Currently i am down to 60k gold due to all the player losses.

Usually only loose 5 to 6 players during a good season, 9-11 when things go bad.

I can't imagine how often i would possible need to go with loners if there was bb2 banking rule.

 

Anyways... i believe one will usually try to win regardless of the amount of points distributed.

And even if not... only getting 2 points for a win does give additional value to td difference.

We might see less stalling from those superior teams.

Therefore.. whatever you choose...  You win some.. you loose some..

[Chubberson]

This is encouraging. Glad about the MM ranking system.

[PaloLV]

I like the 3-1-0 format. Coaches that play the ball and go for wins get rewarded and the games will be more exciting, too.

[Pidpad]

On the other hand this is not football, but blood bowl. Sometimes (reasonably often) the game will be so lopsided (either before start, or due to early dice results) that a draw will feel like a victory. But with 3-1-0 it's still a loss, stealing points from the league table. 2-1-0 means there's always two points coming from a game.

The reason 3-1-0 is the choice in football is to promote more attacking play. Same goes here. I'd expect more stalling with 2-1-0 as there's less incentive to take risks.

[Captain Thorrek]

okay, the camera doesn't reset EVERY time. 2 minute penalty for excessive whining.

Only in Blood Bowl could it be possible for a Football Coach to be sent to The Sin Bin for Delay of Game.

[Rymdkejsaren]

 2-1-0 means there's always two points coming from a game.

 

Yes. But how does it make sense to value a draw the same as a game with a winner in the tables?

[straume]

The reason 3-1-0 is the choice in football is to promote more attacking play. Same goes here. I'd expect more stalling with 2-1-0 as there's less incentive to take risks.

 

Agreed. But is that a bad thing? Early Nuffling and then the possibility to fight for the draw is often a lot more interesting in Bloodbowl than in football. With a 3-1-0 you are giving less to fight for.

[Dreamy]

Yes. But how does it make sense to value a draw the same as a game with a winner in the tables?

Because it puts a heavier weight on "don't lose" and keeps league tables exciting for longer. People give up faster when the season is already decided and a draw is so close to a loss anyway.

[JRCO]

Because it puts a heavier weight on "don't lose" and keeps league tables exciting for longer. People give up faster when the season is already decided and a draw is so close to a loss anyway.

 

+1

 

I believe most league have opted to  3-1-0 instead of 2-1-0 because nobody really put thought about it and they copied Football a little bit automatically.

 

I personnaly like the 2-1-0 system as it keeps teams into the race more longer and provide on a longer time more interesting season for more teams. Paradoxally I believe competition is more tensed in a 2-1-0 league.

[Rymdkejsaren]

A fair point, but I am not sure it is worth the tradeoff. If I win half of my games and lose the other half, I personally think that is a bigger achievement than drawing all my games. And I certainly think both me and my opponents had more fun along the way.

 

Allow me to take each mechanic to the extreme, in order to compare them.

 

In 3-1-0, people are forced to play to win. Assuming then that every game ends up with a winner, it becomes very close to an elimination game type; once you have lost a game, you cannot win the season. The person who doesn't lose any matches wins the season. Is that optimal? No, as you say, people who are "knocked out" have little motivation to play. Or maybe they do if they want to build their team or try to move up a division?

 

In 2-1-0, everyone is more likely to play defensively; they may even aim for the draw if they find the risk of trying to score too big. So what happens if both players are aiming for a draw? That is a setup for a pretty boring match. Bringing it to the point of absurdity, it could end up with literally no one taking any offensive action, as they wait for their opponents to take the risk first. Everyone gets 9 points and no TDs.

 

Of course, neither of these are the reality, but it's pretty easy for me to pick which league I'd rather play in.

[straume]

Football uses 3-1-0 to have more entertaining matches. I don`t think this applies to BloodBowl. A well-fought draw is just as entertaining as a win/loss.

 

Also: Who had the better OCC-seaon (W/D/L):

CoachA: 4-5-0 or Coach B: 6-0-3

 

With a 3-1-0 coach B comes out on top. On a 2-1-0 coachA comes out on top. Personally I favor the latter.

[Moncap]

If you're losing, you'll always fight for the draw, 3-1-0 just encourages you to risk trading a safe draw for a shot at winning.

There are games I would have stalled out rather than scoring and going for the defensive touch down, if it was a 2-1-0.

Not sure if either system is fairer than the other, but 3-1-0 is more entertaining, and encourages glory rather than safety.

[Rymdkejsaren]

I have played a dozen or so seasons in the OCC now, and only in two of them did I have any kind of shot at winning after four or five games. It has not stopped me from playing on and enjoying the game (I had one season when I nearly quit when I was doing poorly, but that was more about my personal life than my results).

 

3-1-0 encourages winning. Because of the high stakes, it also teaches you to lose.

 

Not sure if either system is fairer than the other, but 3-1-0 is more entertaining, and encourages glory rather than safety.

 

That about sums it up for me. I think the arguments for 2-1-0 are solid. But in my opinion, none of them make up for the atmosphere that 3-1-0 creates.

[Dreamy]

There are games I would have stalled out rather than scoring and going for the defensive touch down, if it was a 2-1-0.

I very much doubt it. Points are still important in 2-1-0, and people still stall out in 3-1-0. So it's more about personality and opposition that decides how you will be playing a particular match.

2-1-0 simply makes for more even tables and prolonged tension. 2-1-0 works for hockey, which is a lot more applicable violence-wise to BB than football.

(Also NFL translates better to a 2-1-0 than to a 3-1-0. So it's basically only the sport that has the least to do with Blood Bowl of the big league sports that actually uses 3-1-0)

[Moncap]

I suppose it's hard to be sure. Easy to hypothesise, but in that moment, maybe going for a win is still going for a win.

One match sticks out. Bantha was 1-0 up, about 4 turns into the second half I was in control, not many Vanps left, a pretty certain draw if I wanted it. I had a wizard left. I spent a couple of minutes deciding whether to draw, or not to draw.

The draw being that much more beneficial, and what I needed for promotion being different, there are times when it would change how people play, and what they need.

[wolves in exile]

Back in the days (3rd edition) i ran a TT league where points where calculated (TD's scored x 2) + casualties caused. That was a fun league, it was so we could counter Wood elves from winning almost any league. I don't see why 2-1-0 wouldn't keep things interested, i've never tested this tho.

[Pidpad]

Let's put it this way then:

 

2-1-0 means more teams are going to end up on the same amount of points and in my opinion there are no good tie-breakers that we can track easily.

[Javelin]

5-2-1-0 where a coach that gets an admin loss or concedes gets zero but someone who plays the match but loses gets 1.

 

I'm fine with 3-1-0, I think encouraging going for the score when you can tie on turn 12 makes the game better.

 

I had that same situation happen in the championship yesterday.  I was down 1-0 on turn 12.  I think my chances to tie were good with a stall, but I preferred to hand off to a MA 10 player one square past the LOS and get the TD in so I had a chance to win the match.  We stalled out for the tie anyway, but there was a lot of effort put into someone scoring those last 4 turns.

[meebee]

yes. something could be done about those admin results.

Currently in 2d 3 out of 5 matches are unplayed and most likely will remain unplayed by the looks of it.

 

My upcoming opponent would have played vs smoked. a good chance he would have to miss at least one or 2 players for next match.

I did play my match. Got -agi on my longest serving girl who is one of my main attackers and will miss a guard blitzer next match too.

Tom, who was my last opponent, also lost an important guard player due to regen fail.

 

We both did play our matches and had our losses. 

What i do hate most.. i have to face a fresh team without any injuries next week. 

I usually play for survival and maybe holding the division. Never for the title.

It is annoying, if you face an opponent that could have been somewhat less threatening if he had played his match.. but in fact he now has an advantage because he did do so.

Makes it less likely to earn the points needed to stay in that division. 

 

This is not about smoked or cerumol in special, as i don't even know why the match was not played.

but to explain my point of view

[PaloLV]

At least Smoked doesn't have much Tackle that I recall. I know Smoked got an admin win for MD 1 but are you saying he's getting one for MD 2 as well?

[Javelin]

At least Smoked doesn't have much Tackle that I recall. I know Smoked got an admin win for MD 1 but are you saying he's getting one for MD 2 as well?

 

Who needs tackle when your beast can just grab all the dodgy types and stick them next to him until they can get killed

[meebee]

At least Smoked doesn't have much Tackle that I recall. I know Smoked got an admin win for MD 1 but are you saying he's getting one for MD 2 as well?

I am not sure if it will be a win or a draw.

Don't care, as i don't play him next. smoke comes last md of this season.

I play his opponent of this week. And as smoke got some legends. Some tackle, mighty blow, claw warrior(s), asf...

There would have been a good chance that his opponent would have suffered, had he played.. even if hes undead...

But now i go into next match with a crippled team, while my opponents team had time to recover.

 

Nevermind...

This was not about that particular match. just an example.

Its usually a case by case basis..

Don't think one can put all admin results into one drawer.

But sometimes i really wish there would be some punishment.. at least for those who seem to give a fuck

(on the other hand, that might shrink occ even further)

[Pidpad]

If people look like they're dodging certain teams we try to catch that and take action. We have a few people on a watch list (not only for that reason, mind, there are others as well), but I'm not going to tell who they might be.

[Rymdkejsaren]

The DOCC being a side league, and the day-to-day having been run chiefly by yours truly, I can admit that "security" has not been as tight as it should. We've been monitoring for people intentionally skipping etc. but not as vigilantly as we could have. Once we start out OCC2, I'll make sure that is being considered. But we can never inoculate ourselves completely against exploitative behaviour in the short term.