Viajero Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 As a compromise, if one agree something other than in game is more fair, how about just evaluating that for tier 1 for winner and runner up awards, and then just leave all promotion and relegations to in game values? Precisely. I already proposed something similar to Pidpad some time ago when we started discussing this new trial rule. But he does ont want to hear about it. Pidpad wants the rule, any rule, to apply to EVERY case. Which makes the whole concept really unpractical as he points out. Fair enough. I believe that the new tiebreaker rule, if applied only to actual main promotions/relegations (not bonus ones) would be much more manageable. Further, if we make the tie breake rule applicable just for Tier 1 and for Tier 2 main promotion/relegation ties (no many bonus promotions in T2 anyways afaik, only if a T1 team drops) then I presume it should be even more mangeable and I´d see it as a decent compromise. But if Pidpad line is to apply any rule accross the board, then this one wont work. I see a few voices suggesting that admin TD´s should not be accounted for at all. If that is the case then there is no point in a new tie breaker rule as the one proposed, obviously. For that reason I think that before we try to find a way to ensure TD difference is properly taken into account, Admins need to decide first if admined TD´s should be accounted for or not in the first place. But such a decision should be taken without using the eventual complexity of a system that caters for it as an excuse to hand wave such a system. Let´s first decide what is fair (Anglakhel´s case was high profile enough in T2, but what would happen if there was a tie for the OCC T1 title or runner up after the last MD?... ), and then we can discuss a practical solution for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juriel Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I say we roll for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidpad Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 If someone steps up and volunteers to monitor BBmanager closely, and fix errors etc, we can indeed use what we used this season and as a bonus have BBmanager be the official standings (well, unless points and TD diff is equal, but those cases are somewhat rare and can be fixed easily by hand). However, that someone isn't going to be me. That someone also needs to be ready to do it by hand if BBmanager happens to be down during the off-season (which is not fun, I assure you :P). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 4 3 3 2 4 2 2
Anglakhel Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'm certainly willing to help with the cause. I've offered in the past. I'm willing to be a BB Manager monitor and to help work this season to find an efficient system to handle this on a regular basis. It seems to me the most difficult part is actually sorting for the Bonus Promotions anyway and that BB Manager, although imperfect, would be the best available tool for the job to streamline the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobnail Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Meanwhile, one us needs to write our own upload software that we CAN control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 5
Hobnail Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 As far as the rule is concerned, my understanding is that if a Football/Premier League club fails to complete a fixture, a 3-0 win is given to the opposition with the goal difference counting. If it's good enough for them......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 5
dode Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Different motivations. I suspect there is a bit less gate take in such situations. Played win > adminned win, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Hawca Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 im currenty writing an excel sheet that may help, but will require each week results putting in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Hobnail Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 5
Hobnail Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Different motivations. I suspect there is a bit less gate take in such situations. Played win > adminned win, IMO. I disagree. Aw in is a win from where I stand. If you want an admined win to be worth less than any other, why not change it to 1-0? That gives the least advantage possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 5
dode Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Because, apart from the client having issues when it's not 2-0, that's still worth the same as a 1-0 win. 3 points and no TD advantage puts an adminned win worth more than a draw but less than a 1-0 played win, which is exactly where it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Dain-Jon Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 The main problem I have with admin wins counting is the 2-0 difference. Most of my wins (And I believe the majority of wins, but I could be wrong.) are by 1 td, not two. So you are giving a greater advantage to the team that takes the admin win in my view than the average team that plays and wins. I would rather have the admin win give less of an advantage than a played win rather than more of an advantage. Ideally it would be equal, but since we don't know how the match would've gone, that's impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglakhel Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Regardless of the value of an Admin Win, the client is bugged when counting all Admin matches. It's can hurt in multiple scenarios. Two teams in a tight race could result in a team being better off not showing up for a match and taking an Admin Loss than showing up to play. If a Loss would result in the teams tied in Standings points, the Admin Loss could easily be the safest outcome in cases where a "real" Loss would give the other tie a chance to surpass you on TD +/-. The leading team could simply no show for the match, take the Admin Loss, secure in the knowledge that the bug won't count the TD +/- or that it's been decided that Admin Wins should be less valuable than "real" Wins. Not an impossible scenario and certainly not competitively desirable. Further, the bug affect Draws too. My particular situation occurred due to an Admin Draw, not an Admin Loss. It wasn't my Admin result either. The Archons completed all our matches while the Bulldogs had an Admin Draw. Despite the Archons beating the Bulldogs on TD +/-, the in game client awarded the Tie Break to the Bulldogs. So even if we were comfortable with saying Admin Wins should be worth less, which I'm certainly not, the client is still bugged causing unexpected rulings on Tie Breaks to the detriment of teams that played all their matches. I really think the arguments that we should treat this bug as a feature are silly and we should be focused on how to craft a better system for transparency in Tie Breaks along with a more efficient way of calculating rankings across Divisions for the purpose of seeding. This has obviously been a time consuming task for Pidpad and resolving the issue is a much broader problem than just bugged Tie Breaks within Divisions, but resolving the broader issue will allow us to implement a more transparent and fair system for rankings in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viajero Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 3 points and no TD advantage puts an adminned win worth more than a draw but less than a 1-0 played win, which is exactly where it should be. I understand this is not a democracy, but with all due respect, that is your opinion only. I disagree. Two teams in a tight race could result in a team being better off not showing up for a match and taking an Admin Loss than showing up to play. If a Loss would result in the teams tied in Standings points, the Admin Loss could easily be the safest outcome in cases where a "real" Loss would give the other tie a chance to surpass you on TD +/-. The leading team could simply no show for the match, take the Admin Loss, secure in the knowledge that the bug won't count the TD +/- or that it's been decided that Admin Wins should be less valuable than "real" Wins. For this, among other reasons. I have faced this exact situation in another smaller league I admin. And it was not nice. If an admined win is worth less than a real win, an admined loss will be worth more than a real loss. A win should be a win, with all its consequences. And everyone, including teams unable or unwilling to play, should face all these consequences in the standings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobnail Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 5
dode Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I already said it was my opinion a few posts ago. I'm not going to keep reposting "IMO" just to keep you happy Surely almost all posts are merely opinion, anyway? Saying "that's just your opinion" is not actually a counter-argument, it's just stating the obvious. As for the adminned vs real thing, adminned wins get other advantages in the form of no-risk SPP and cash while adminned losses are punished by receiving neither. The future effects of these will be seen in the standings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Hobnail Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 ..but penalised by being limited to 12 random spp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 5
dode Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 16 SPP with no risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Hobnail Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 My mistake, 16 sorry. But often, Id rather have less spp roughly where i want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 5
dode Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Of course. Youoften have to take it where you can get it in a match, too. And then there is the high probability of getting extra cash, again at no risk. My point is that these things will have an effect further down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Hawca Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 The first test sheet is with pidpad awaiting his approval. If it gets the go I will expand it to do what is required. 6 hours on that baby and it's for div 1 only. The rest are 40 teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Hobnail Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I understand your point, its just that I think that there as many minuses as pluses when given an admin result, that's all. That is why I think win=win. Doesnt help Pidpad though. Although without wishing to be a git, if I were his parent, I'd ask him to share with others better and if I were his boss, I'd suggest that he delegates poorly: in this instance at least. A trusty lieutenant or two might be in order and if that doesnt work, more time will. Surely an additional week between seasons in the name of accuracy wont kill us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 5
Hawca Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'm hoping my sheets will help and if they do maybe I can help with them too 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Anglakhel Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 The first test sheet is with pidpad awaiting his approval. If it gets the go I will expand it to do what is required. 6 hours on that baby and it's for div 1 only. The rest are 40 teams. Once you create the structure for the sheet does it get faster to plug it other divisions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawca Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I have the foundations done. To complete it may take about the same again. Hoping no bugs appear lol I'm no excel expert either it's all self taught. Once it's done I think about hour to set up each tier. Then 30 mins a week per tier to keep on top of it. Per season you need about 40 hours to track and make all tie breakers good. This may and should get quicker. And can be done as result come in etc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
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