PaloLV Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Not a code or net expert but I think the easiest explanation is he found a way to trigger a bug in Cyanide's code which mistakenly awards the admin win to the wrong team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dode Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Not a code or net expert but I think the easiest explanation is he found a way to trigger a bug in Cyanide's code which mistakenly awards the admin win to the wrong team.He'd need server access. Jounisii - entirely happy to agree to disagree. Have fun in Nagg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Rymdkejsaren Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Not a code or net expert but I think the easiest explanation is he found a way to trigger a bug in Cyanide's code which mistakenly awards the admin win to the wrong team. Yes, and in my mind the fact that the connection is p2p does not exclude the possibility that some bug returns erroneous information to the server at the end of the match. But Dode seems to think that is the case, and I do not know why. The video he posted explains how a p2p connection works. I just do not see the logic in how that makes it impossible for the client code to somehow be broken and exploitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 2 4 2 2 3 2 2
Rymdkejsaren Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 He'd need server access. Jounisii - entirely happy to agree to disagree. Have fun in Nagg I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I genuinely want to know: why would he need server access? At the end of the game the client sends a match report. What makes it impossible that there is some bug that allows manipulation of that report so that it changes the results of the game in the eyes of the server? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 2 4 2 2 3 2 2
dode Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Because we know what the server does with those reports. It simply compares them. Take a look at the video at the bottom of page 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Rymdkejsaren Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 But how does that mean that an individual file cannot be manipulated to confuse the server? Clearly it does not compare the files down to the 1's and 0's because it says in the video that if both files report a win, it does not even compare the rest of the data. So it is checking variables/booleans etc. reported by the files. The comparison of the files is only as good as the code on the server that translates the information in the file, no? And I do not see why that could not have some kind of bug or mistake in it that can be exploited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 2 4 2 2 3 2 2
dode Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 If both files have reported a win then how is he cheating? He won! I think you're reaching if you think that the files which are sent (which anyone can read) can be manipulated in that way. It would require extensive knowledge of the server - you'd need to know that the server had that bug and how to exploit it. Without server access the odds are beyond astronomical, to the point where it is far more likely that his record is legit and he never cheats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Moncap Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 This technical stuff - I'm not going to read it, or watch the video. I don't understand how they system works, and I don't particulalry care. I haven't ready all of the thread even, and I'm a bit drunk. When I played Artrak, the disconnection timer came up, ran for about two minutes then started again. Ran for another two minutes, started again. Finished the count down the third time, but the game didn't finish, the way it normally does when there is a disconnection. I eventually quite the game, and was dissapointed to see the win was given to my opponent. Given the moment of the disconnection, and the record of the coach, I was pretty sure it was a scam, and the fact that so many other coaches have had a similar experience against him, makes me even more confident. Dode - I'm 100% sure your understanding of the disconnection system is way beyond mine, and I know you to be a reasonable, and generally lovely fellow. My question to you is this - how many accouts of this happening would it take to make you wonder if Artrak had found some exploit. 10, 100, 1000? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dode Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 It's not down to a number of accounts, it's down to technical feasibility. I'm also not saying it's technically impossible, but very, very, very unlikely to the point where the majority of other explanations are far more likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Rymdkejsaren Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 If both files have reported a win then how is he cheating? He won! That is not what I meant. I used it as an example to point out that the files are not necessarily compared in their entirety. I think you're reaching if you think that the files which are sent (which anyone can read) can be manipulated in that way. It would require extensive knowledge of the server - you'd need to know that the server had that bug and how to exploit it. Without server access the odds are beyond astronomical, to the point where it is far more likely that his record is legit and he never cheats. A lot of bugs are discovered at random and abused by those who discover them, which requires little or no knowledge of the underlying systems. Their effects are all the more severe when very special circumstances are required to trigger them because unless the few that stumble upon them report them they are very difficult to chase down. With decades of experience in beta testing, I have more than once seen highly skilled and experienced developers go "this is not supposed to be possible" at the code they themselves wrote. And this code was written by Cyanide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 2 4 2 2 3 2 2
Dee Von Doom Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Sigh. Just don't play Nagg, blacklist the little cheat, and stick to playing well run moderated leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rymdkejsaren Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I don't play Nagg anymore. I just like understanding things. And discussing stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 2 4 2 2 3 2 2
danton Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I haven't played MM in a long time, but I would say there is clearly enough evidence from what has been reported here to suggest that someone may have found an exploit. A pattern that repeats itself against various coaches, who all have good reputations, with the same culprit on the other end is easily enough to raise suspicion. Just saying that something is "technically impossible" isn't going to find the answer to what is going on. I'm sure that lots of people said it was technically impossible to hack various secure government networks that were then hacked. This person may even have accessed the server, or found a way to exploit the p2p system. The best thing would be to get a server person at Cyanide (it used to be a guy called Lucas, but don't know if he still works there) to go through the server logs for this guy's matches in order to see if he can detect something out of the ordinary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 2 3 2
jounisii Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 DVD, blacklist only saves you from hilarious banter from the one you've blacklisted. Doesn't affect MM. And just for the record, I friended Artak in client. He has now had about 20 mins 8/16 turn with his nagg vamps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 2
Kazman29 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 When I played Artrak, the disconnection timer came up, ran for about two minutes then started again. Ran for another two minutes, started again. Finished the count down the third time, but the game didn't finish, the way it normally does when there is a disconnection. I eventually quite the game, and was dissapointed to see the win was given to my opponent. Given the moment of the disconnection, and the record of the coach, I was pretty sure it was a scam, and the fact that so many other coaches have had a similar experience against him, makes me even more confident. Exactly. This is exactly what happened to me and others. Somewhere, somehow in some unknown way he has to have figured out something, no matter how 'impossible' it seems. Talking to someone face to face on a screen was impossible when I was a kid... what kind of crazy Star Trek technology is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 2
jounisii Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 The match I mentioned earlier, the match of Artrek's vamps that had earlier dragged on for 20 mins on same turn, is in the same situation (turn 8/16). About 2 hrs and 15 mins later. And yes, it's the same match. I checked. For me that seems way fishy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 2
Pidpad Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 It's not that complicated. Disconnect and reconnect a lot to bore your opponent into quitting. Patience wins in the end, granted I think he has tons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 4 3 3 2 4 2 2
SovereignStrike Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 That's the bug in the system, right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazman29 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 except that he disconnects a couple of times for 2-3 minutes and on the third wait the timer counts all the way down to 0:00 and nothing happens. It just stays there and there is nothing you can do (that I know of). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 2
Doomy77 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 It's amazing how much time some people are willing to put into not playing a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 4
PaloLV Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 It's probably something stupid like he alt tabs out and changes his computer clock settings mid-match which Cyanide's code can't handle and it results in the timer counting down and eventually getting the admin win result instead of a loss. I'm not saying that's what he's doing but that it's probably something like that. It would be especially funny if it was a y2k bug. Change computer date and time mid match to 12/31/99 23:59:00 and Cyanide freaks out when it flips to 1/1/00. It would be the most hilarious thing ever if it was a y40k bug. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy75 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Hey Dode, what procedure in place for the disconnecting players in FOL? I've not had many, but a few...I also think I used to send you in-game messages of pre-match disconnecting players (but I can't remember). Anyhoo, just let me know if I've missed something as now I just don't bother to let anyone know (but I would if I thought it was worth the time!). EDIT: as, whether or not there's a loophole, I think the solution of banning repetitive offenders is the way to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
dode Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 zippy, there's an email address in the info page for FOL and that tells you what you need to do. I do ban repeat offenders. Thing is, lots of people only see one aspect which is someone who DC'd twice with them (for example) while not seeing the other 20-30 games they played without issue in FOL (I don't care what they get up to in other leagues). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
danton Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 The only thing this video shows is that cheating is in fact possible. I'm confused as to why Dode posted it to defend his "it's technically impossible" argument... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards 2 3 2
zippy75 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Errr... Brain Hurts - I've just watched the vid (I think I get some of it) but... It's too complicated for me (because I'm thick) However it does seem to suggest that players can disconnect from a match and still get something? Still...avoid Auld and Nagg: report to Dode (etc.) cheats in the better leagues (like FOL!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
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