The Wednesday Babe 27/05/2015

[dode]

Be very careful when interpreting the meaning of someone else's second language regardless of how well it is used generally. It's usually better to get clarification as to their meaning rather than telling them what it is.

[Hobnail]

In fairness, he said the same when i got to Tier 1.

I wasnt insulted.

The truth of the matter is that it is difficult to be sexist regarding most members success (or failure) because we quite simply do not know who is male or fenale.

And quite frankly. Who gives a shit?

[straume]

Yeah. Tier1 is nothing special. Even Hobs can make it

[Hobnail]

See?

[Rymdkejsaren]

Be very careful when interpreting the meaning of someone else's second language regardless of how well it is used generally. It's usually better to get clarification as to their meaning rather than telling them what it is.

 

I agree.

 

Again, I am not saying that Pidpad is sexist, and any interpretation I have made of what and how he writes is mine alone. I am not trying to put words into his mouth and I apologise if that is the way it came off.

 

What I am trying to say is that the way we talk in general often perpetuates certain ways of thinking without us even being aware of it.

[dode]

The logic is simple: you feel the to mention that someone did well because it was not expected.

As a comparison, what if you were talking about another group of people? If there was a discussion about nationalities, do you think you would feel the need to mention that not only do we have Germans playing here, but some of them even do well?

I'd say it was reasonable if the group being mentioned was not expected to play here or was underrepresented in general. This is because an underrepresented group with above average results is noteworthy regardless of the nature of the group. "Not only have we had several South Africans play here, one of them even got to the top tier" is an entirely reasonable statement and in no way derogatory to South Africans.

[Pidpad]

 

 

Again, I am not saying that Pidpad is sexist, and any interpretation I have made of what and how he writes is mine alone. I am not trying to put words into his mouth and I apologise if that is the way it came off.

 

 

 

It most certainly comes off that way.

 

My expectation of how well someone would do (group or individual, not counting anyone I know prior), regardless of nationality, gender or color of dog would be average.

Reaching the top tier is clearly above average.

 

As for discussing how well nationalities do, that's so much simpler as I generally know who's from what country, it's less easy to tell with gender as that's easily hidden.

[meebee]

I believe that every "human" should be seen and treated as being equal.

Men and women are not equal. And there are good reasons why this is and has to be truth.

 

I won't deny my natural instinct (anymore) just because someone tells me its bad to do so.

Been there. Still catch myself ending up there once in a while..

But thats not purpose of my life.

 

Believe me.. there are a lot of sexist women around too.

You won't change that.

 

But thats another discussion..

I just got a question for you..

 

Who is the one taking women not serious?

 

The one who doesn't care, nor think about the possibility a woman could read or feel offended by his post..

or the one who reads the post and feels he needs to protect women or the forum against such writers.. (coz they might feel the need to leave or not join at all or whatever?)

 

Not saying, that i got the right answer to that question..

i just think, women (as men) can make up their own mind and fight for their own stand if they feel the need to do so.

And trying to fight for them although there have been no concerns spoken out loud leaves the impression, that some might think they are too weak to do so..

 

(and the right of free speech doesn't grant racist or pornographic content won't be banned for being unjust)

 

I love to watch beautiful women.. and i would have preferred if the woman in the first post would have been showing less..

poor art, that ignores the power of imagination..

yet art and not pornography 

[Rymdkejsaren]

It most certainly comes off that way.

 

My expectation of how well someone would do (group or individual, not counting anyone I know prior), regardless of nationality, gender or color of dog would be average.

Reaching the top tier is clearly above average.

 

As for discussing how well nationalities do, that's so much simpler as I generally know who's from what country, it's less easy to tell with gender as that's easily hidden.

 

I am sorry Pidpad, I should have just made some type of neutral example instead, and I understand if you feel that I misinterpreted what you said. It was not my intention for this to become personal.

[Hobnail]

+1 meebee.

[danton]

Not expecting a woman to do well at Blood Bowl does not equate to a sexist attitude. Blood Bowl for a start is not a game that appeals to women generally, for a number of reasons. So for a woman to play the game in the first place already puts them in a minority. That doesn't mean that a woman can't do well at the game. It just means it's less likely.

 

If you look at a game like Chess, then you can see that men have historically always outperformed women. Chess has some similarities with Blood Bowl in that they are both turn based strategy games, although Chess lacks any RNG elements, so there is much more emphasis on skill / knowledge than on luck. For someone to excel at Chess they not only have to be talented at the game, but they also have to put a lot of work into it. The gender gap in Chess has been reduced somewhat over the past couple of decades, mainly due to woman having more opportunities within the sport than before, but they still lag quite far behind men in general. Currently there are only 2 women in the top 100 chess players in the world (ranked 62 and 67).

 

So if I say that I don't expect to see a woman become the world chess champion any time soon, does that make me sexist? No it doesn't. That's just my opinion based on the historical and projected performance of women in the sport . That opinion can of course be proven wrong, but that doesn't make it sexist either. The same holds true for saying you don't expect a woman to do well at BB. It's an opinion based on how many women play and how well they have done in general.

[Soleil Noir]

Except I said none of those things Soleil. I did not argue against the thread in the name of political correctness or moralism, nor did I tell you how to live your life.

 

Well it was implied in your statement. If you judge something I like shouldn't be done because of some moral reason of yours it could (could = not even sure) offend a certain group of people : doing so your pointing finger and  telling me not to do it.

 

So yes especially on such politically correct topic, you did say and do all of those things.

 

Sad you do not realize it. You are so much full of political correctness that you cannot write a message without excusing yourselve. Read all your messages above. ... so politically correct and polite....

 

My suggestion : Breack your chain : be free, tell what you really think, tell me to go to hell (without trying to figure out if i will be sad that you are mad at me !!!). I know you can do it !

 

Political correctness is vile soft dictature, which hidden behind so called "pure intention" , has only one effect : limiting freedom. Being so you build your own prison.

[Hobnail]

Go to hell Soleil.

[zippy75]

We really shouldn't objectify women in the 21st century...

 

We've left the 1960s and the wave of sexist, racist, bigamist behavior well behind us.

 

Now, let's celebrate peace and mutual understanding by going to a strip club! 

 

[narg]

The point on which I really can't make up my mind is this: is it ok for Blood Bowl to be sexist?

 

Because it obviously is.

 

But it's also obviously satire.

 

And I generally agree with Rymdkejsaren - I've read a good bit on the topic, and it's true that in our civilization there's so much sexism that we don't even realize it, with men generally depicted as doing everything, and women, well not so much. Look at Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, James Bond, etc. It's only in the very latest James Bond or the latest Mission: Impossible that you're starting to get interesting, strong female characters.

 

And really I think that if half-naked women are ok on the pitch then they should be ok in the Wednesday Babe thread.

[Rymdkejsaren]

narg, I am simply trying to raise the issue in a place where I think I have a hope of making some small difference. I do wish that Blood Bowl the computer game would address concerns of gender portrayal in a better way, especially since it is being remade. But there are already people fighting that fight on a larger scale and things are slowly changing for the better. Besides, if I want to change the game who should I try to convince, if not its consumers? As for trying to get Cyanide to even consider something like gender portrayal; I know a lost fight when I see it.

 

Soleil, I guess I do not need to tell you to go to hell because I already offended you with my politeness and my insidious pro-equality agenda? Feel free to tell me to go to hell, though. Since most of your opinion on me is based on things I have not actually said, I guess there would be no need for me to be offended.

 

Dode and danton, you both make good points about the size of the group, and I may have been a bit quick to judge. I definitely think there is an underlying problem in how we talk about and view women in the gaming community, but I could have made a better example.

[Borke]

Couple of quick thoughts:

 

I believe that discussions like this one are good and important, because they raise awareness of the gender inequality that is rooted deeply in society.

 

The fact that half of us on these forums are not natural English speakers does make the discussion much more difficult, since some arguments are very nuanced, and statements can be misunderstood.

 

I believe that an argument like "you don't need to protect women, they can choose to simply ignore the Wednesday Babe or whatever" might be true for this particular case (i.e. the OCC and the Wednesday Babe thread), but on the level of society as a whole, the problem is that gender inequality often comes with a power imbalance between genders as well, and simply ignoring the fact that imbalance exists doesn't make it go away. As has been stated several times in this thread: Gender inequality is a self-reinforcing state, and therefore it has to be actively counteracted, otherwise it won't change.

[narg]

Re chess - if in fairy tales women were playing chess instead of sleeping waiting for prince charming, maybe that 80% of chess grandmaster would be women. Culture is conditioning us from the craddle, difficult to know.

[narg]

Another random thought - there is one strong female character in Blood Bowl - Zara the Slayer. But it's basically a spoof of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is itself a feminist character as it turns the world upside down with a blonde running after monsters, which is the opposite of what happens in your average fairy tale / horror movie. So we have Joss Whedon to thank about this one.

[zippy75]

although, have you noticed the way that all the female characters in the game have big wobbly breasts?

 

Not that I'm complaining...

[notafunhater]

Hell, the best player out of the box in the game is the Wardancer, which are all female too! Take that, sexism!

[dode]

Narg -

It's only in the very latest James Bond or the latest Mission: Impossible that you're starting to get interesting, strong female characters

While it may be the exception which proves the rule, she disagrees:

is it ok for Blood Bowl to be sexist?

Because it obviously is.

But it's also obviously satire.

I think it's a caricature. And yes, in order to caricature something you have to emphasise to the point of absurdity the characteristics to be ridiculed. One of those characteristics being ridiculed in BB is the overly sexual nature of the fantasy trope.

Borke -

gender inequality often comes with a power imbalance between genders as well, and simply ignoring the fact that imbalance exists doesn't make it go away.

I don't think anyone has suggested it would, merely that speaking out on behalf of a hypothetical offended party is nonsense.

Rymdkesjaren -

a place where I think I have a hope of making some small difference.

Genuine question: what exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

[Captain Thorrek]

Wouldn't it be easy just to shove the whole babe/dude stuff in a separate cheering fans section? This way it can keep kids out so the parents aren't in an uproar, and just have one susbsection for men, one for women. Most of the complaints I hear from geek girls is not about the whole "Patriarchy" nonsense (it's very difficult to convince a married man who's told his wife "No," about The Patriarchy), but they're just not getting their fair share of eye candy. Then, there'll be guys and galls for everybody to drool over, parents won't have to worry about any overt Slaaneshi influence, and those who don't want to can pass the whole bit over. Everybody wins!

[narg]

Sigou

 

Wouldn't it be easy just to shove the whole babe/dude stuff in a separate cheering fans section?

 

No. Racist stuff would not be ok anywhere, a separate section wouldn't help.

 

I think that sexism is generally a real problem but I'm not sure it applies to Blood Bowl as it's a spoof / satire / caricature / whatever. But it's a rather complex topic so I think it's good to discuss how to deal with it.

 

And Sigourney Weaver rocks! I'm a big fan of Resident Evil as well.

[narg]

How about this rule - it's ok to have pictures of half-naked women in the dug outs, as long as they're clearly part of the Blood Bowl universe?

 

Same for pictures of dead / injured people. Funny to see a dead elf, less so to see real pictures of dead people...

 

Just an idea...